[Regia-NA] The Black Death and or the Plague and Rings of Roses
Yolli
list-regia-na@lig.net
Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:23:30 -0000
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This goes on a bit - so get a cup of coffee.
I was bored at work one day in 1986 by the way....and after a lively =
discussion regarding the Black Death at Hearth Night back in Bristol I =
thought we could clear up one or two aspects regarding the disease.
All this was apropos of some Plague pits that had been discovered in =
Bristol near where British Telecom had an office block - although I =
don't know whether they were 1300's or 1665 pits.
Not soon after there was a programme on the box in addition to the =
gossip that people were worried if the Plague pits were still =
contagious.
Well, firstly I spoke to the local hospital ( the Bristol Royal =
Infirmary ) who passed me onto their specialist isolation section at the =
now defunct section near Ham Green. After a bit of sweet talking I got =
him to pass me onto PortenDown in Wiltshire which is a Government place =
where 'we' store and make our own gases and chemical weapons etc, etc.
I spoke to a Professor there who was soon to retire. I mustn't have =
seemed too suspicious as we had a nice conversation. I add here =
something from the web that fills out the stats etc of the Black Death:
"In the early 1330s an outbreak of deadly bubonic plague occurred in =
China. Plague mainly affects rodents, but fleas can transmit the disease =
to people. Once people are infected, they infect others very rapidly. =
Plague causes fever and a painful swelling of the lymph glands called =
buboes, which is how it gets its name. The disease also causes spots on =
the skin that are red at first and then turn black.=20
Since China was one of the busiest of the world's trading nations, it =
was only a matter of time before the outbreak of plague in China spread =
to western Asia and Europe. In October of 1347, several Italian merchant =
ships returned from a trip to the Black Sea, one of the key links in =
trade with China. When the ships docked in Sicily, many of those on =
board were already dying of plague. Within days the disease spread to =
the city and the surrounding countryside. An eyewitness tells what =
happened:=20
"Realizing what a deadly disaster had come to them, the people quickly =
drove the Italians from their city. But the disease remained, and soon =
death was everywhere. Fathers abandoned their sick sons. Lawyers refused =
to come and make out wills for the dying. Friars and nuns were left to =
care for the sick, and monasteries and convents were soon deserted, as =
they were stricken, too. Bodies were left in empty houses, and there was =
no one to give them a Christian burial."
The disease struck and killed people with terrible speed. The Italian =
writer Boccaccio said its victims often=20
"ate lunch with their friends and dinner with their ancestors in =
paradise."
By the following August, the plague had spread as far north as England, =
where people called it "The Black Death" because of the black spots it =
produced on the skin. A terrible killer was loose across Europe, and =
Medieval medicine had nothing to combat it.=20
In winter the disease seemed to disappear, but only because fleas--which =
were now helping to carry it from person to person--are dormant then. =
Each spring, the plague attacked again, killing new victims. After five =
years 25 million people were dead--one-third of Europe's people.=20
Even when the worst was over, smaller outbreaks continued, not just for =
years, but for centuries. The survivors lived in constant fear of the =
plague's return, and the disease did not disappear until the 1600s.=20
Medieval society never recovered from the results of the plague. So many =
people had died that there were serious labour shortages all over =
Europe. This led workers to demand higher wages, but landlords refused =
those demands. By the end of the 1300s peasant revolts broke out in =
England, France, Belgium and Italy.=20
The disease took its toll on the church as well. People throughout =
Christendom had prayed devoutly for deliverance from the plague. Why =
hadn't those prayers been answered? A new period of political turmoil =
and philosophical questioning lay ahead.=20
DISASTER STRIKES
Estimated population of Europe from 1000 to 1352.=20
a.. 1000 38 million=20
b.. 1100 48 million=20
c.. 1200 59 million=20
d.. 1300 70 million=20
e.. 1347 75 million=20
f.. 1352 50 million=20
25 million people died in just under five years between 1347 and 1352."=20
However, the programme on the box posed the idea that the 1347 Black =
Death was Anthrax because the bodies bled from all orifices when they =
popped their clogs. The Prof I spoke to disagreed strongly with this as =
he had only seen one example of Anthrax being passed from one human to =
another via a baby being breast fed. And having seen what latent Anthrax =
in the soil in China today can do ( dished out to them by the Japanese =
in WWII along with other things that they had to hand ) - rotting flesh =
via small cuts in the skin - yeuch!
This inspired him to seek out a horses carcass in Norfolk that he had =
witnessed that had been buried with lime - as he wanted to see if he =
could culture any spores from it.
Gruinard Island in Scotland had an Anthrax device exploded on it in the =
late 40's or early 50's. It did kill all the sheep and other livestock =
they placed there - but it is swarming with Seagulls and rabbits today. =
I don't know if it's considered clear though - and the Chinese problem =
suggests it won't be....unless it was just Black Death.
However, the Plague or Black Death does still occur on a regular basis =
in Inner and Outer Mongolia. It also crops up in the States from what =
I'm told..... Anyway, in China who run Inner Mongolia, they call it =
Marmot Disease - Ground Hog. They hunt these guys for food, and they =
stay well away from any that are too easy to catch or shoot. It would =
seem too that some aspect of whether the doors to their Gers/Yurts ( =
Mongolian name and Khazak name ) is closed or open denotes whether or =
not they have Plague in the tent. I can't remember which is which ( see =
Tim Severin's book on his ride with the Mongols ).
He suggests that as the Great Khan instituted a postal service using =
strings of horses to get from one end of his empire to the other. The =
habit was to use one man per message and just to change the horse. It =
was an astounding system that eclipses the Pony Express. The pony =
express changed both the man and horse at each station. Gengis's mail =
service lasted for over 200 years - but Tim Severin thinks that the =
incubation time for Black Death could have lasted the time it took for a =
rider to get from Mongolia to Eastern Europe and in doing so deliver the =
Plague with it.=20
Ring-a-ring a roses,
A pocket full of posies,
A-tishoo, a-tishoo,
We all fall down.
The Germans also have a version of this children's rhyme - and it is =
recorded from about the same period. But, the last two lines are quite =
different and are just as nonsensical and they too fall over at the end. =
So does it mean that it's a Plague rhyme or just a silly childs game?
Roll.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Schuster, Robert L." <SchusterRL@umsystem.edu>
To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:11 PM
Subject: RE: [Regia-NA] False: The four kings in a deck of playing cards =
represent Charlemagne, David, Caesar, and Alexander
This is fairly well known, actually, at least amongst the historical
groups. :-) It goes right along with the myth about =
ring-around-the-rosy
and the Black Death, or that stupid stupid list of 'well known phrases'
that describes the medieval origins of stuff like 'raining cats and =
dogs'
or the thing about the train tracks being determined by the width of a
horses arse.
-- Brett
--i was pretty sure the list of phrases thing was a hoax but i thought =
Ring Around the Rossies was a song about the Plague, is it not?
Halvgrimr
Sing a Song of Six Pence was used by who to recruit?
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This goes on a bit - so get a cup of=20
coffee.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was bored at work one day in 1986 by =
the=20
way....and after a lively discussion regarding the Black Death at Hearth =
Night=20
back in Bristol I thought we could clear up one or two aspects regarding =
the=20
disease.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All this was apropos of some Plague =
pits that had=20
been discovered in Bristol near where British Telecom had an office =
block -=20
although I don't know whether they were 1300's or 1665 =
pits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not soon after there was a programme on =
the box in=20
addition to the gossip that people were worried if the Plague pits were =
still=20
contagious.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, firstly I spoke to the local =
hospital ( the=20
Bristol Royal Infirmary ) who passed me onto their specialist isolation =
section=20
at the now defunct section near Ham Green. After a bit of sweet talking =
I got=20
him to pass me onto PortenDown in Wiltshire which is a Government place =
where=20
'we' store and make our own gases and chemical weapons etc, =
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I spoke to a Professor there who was =
soon to=20
retire. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I mustn't have seemed too =
suspicious as=20
we had a nice conversation. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I add =
here something=20
from the web that fills out the stats etc of the Black =
Death:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>"In the early 1330s an =
outbreak of=20
deadly bubonic plague occurred in China. Plague mainly affects rodents, =
but=20
fleas can transmit the disease to people. Once people are infected, they =
infect=20
others very rapidly. Plague causes fever and a painful swelling of the =
lymph=20
glands called buboes, which is how it gets its name. The disease also =
causes=20
spots on the skin that are red at first and then turn black. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Since China was one of =
the busiest of=20
the world's trading nations, it was only a matter of time before the =
outbreak of=20
plague in China spread to western Asia and Europe. In October of 1347, =
several=20
Italian merchant ships returned from a trip to the Black Sea, one of the =
key=20
links in trade with China. When the ships docked in Sicily, many of =
those on=20
board were already dying of plague. Within days the disease spread to =
the city=20
and the surrounding countryside. An eyewitness tells what happened: =
</FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>"Realizing what =
a deadly=20
disaster had come to them, the people quickly drove the Italians from =
their=20
city. But the disease remained, and soon death was everywhere. Fathers =
abandoned their sick sons. Lawyers refused to come and make out wills =
for the=20
dying. Friars and nuns were left to care for the sick, and monasteries =
and=20
convents were soon deserted, as they were stricken, too. Bodies were =
left in=20
empty houses, and there was no one to give them a Christian=20
burial."</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The disease struck and =
killed people=20
with terrible speed. The Italian writer Boccaccio said its victims often =
</FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>"ate lunch with =
their=20
friends and dinner with their ancestors in =
paradise."</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>By the following August, =
the plague had=20
spread as far north as England, where people called it "The Black Death" =
because=20
of the black spots it produced on the skin. A terrible killer was loose =
across=20
Europe, and Medieval medicine had nothing to combat it. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In winter the disease =
seemed to=20
disappear, but only because fleas--which were now helping to carry it =
from=20
person to person--are dormant then. Each spring, the plague attacked =
again,=20
killing new victims. After five years 25 million people were =
dead--one-third of=20
Europe's people. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Even when the worst was =
over, smaller=20
outbreaks continued, not just for years, but for centuries. The =
survivors lived=20
in constant fear of the plague's return, and the disease did not =
disappear until=20
the 1600s. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Medieval society never =
recovered from=20
the results of the plague. So many people had died that there were =
serious=20
labour shortages all over Europe. This led workers to demand higher =
wages, but=20
landlords refused those demands. By the end of the 1300s peasant revolts =
broke=20
out in England, France, Belgium and Italy. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The disease took its toll =
on the church=20
as well. People throughout Christendom had prayed devoutly for =
deliverance from=20
the plague. Why hadn't those prayers been answered? A new period of =
political=20
turmoil and philosophical questioning lay ahead. </FONT>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>
<H2><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>DISASTER =
STRIKES</FONT></H2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Estimated population of =
Europe from=20
1000 to 1352. </FONT></DIV>
<UL>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>1000 38 million =
</FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>1100 48 million =
</FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>1200 59 million =
</FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>1300 70 million =
</FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>1347 75 million =
</FONT>
<LI><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>1352 50 million =
</FONT></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>25 million people =
died in just=20
under five years between 1347 and 1352."</FONT> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, the programme on the box posed =
the idea=20
that the 1347 Black Death was Anthrax because the bodies bled from all =
orifices=20
when they popped their clogs. The Prof I spoke to disagreed strongly =
with this=20
as he had only seen one example of Anthrax being passed from one human =
to=20
another via a baby being breast fed. And having seen what latent Anthrax =
in the=20
soil in China today can do ( dished out to them by the Japanese in =
WWII=20
along with other things that they had to hand ) - rotting flesh via =
small cuts=20
in the skin - yeuch!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This inspired him to seek out a horses =
carcass in=20
Norfolk that he had witnessed that had been buried with lime - as he =
wanted to=20
see if he could culture any spores from it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Gruinard Island in Scotland had an =
Anthrax device=20
exploded on it in the late 40's or early 50's. It did kill all the sheep =
and=20
other livestock they placed there - but it is swarming with Seagulls and =
rabbits=20
today. I don't know if it's considered clear though - and the Chinese =
problem=20
suggests it won't be....unless it was just Black Death.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, the Plague or Black Death does =
still occur=20
on a regular basis in Inner and Outer Mongolia. It also crops up in the =
States=20
from what I'm told..... Anyway, in China who run Inner Mongolia, they =
call it=20
Marmot Disease - Ground Hog. They hunt these guys for food, and they =
stay well=20
away from any that are too easy to catch or shoot. It would seem too =
that some=20
aspect of whether the doors to their Gers/Yurts ( Mongolian name and =
Khazak name=20
) is closed or open denotes whether or not they have Plague in the tent. =
I can't=20
remember which is which ( see Tim Severin's book on his ride with the =
Mongols=20
).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He suggests that as the Great Khan =
instituted a=20
postal service using strings of horses to get from one end of his empire =
to the=20
other. The habit was to use one man per message and just to change the =
horse. It=20
was an astounding system that eclipses the Pony Express. The pony =
express=20
changed both the man and horse at each station. Gengis's mail =
service=20
lasted for over 200 years - but Tim Severin thinks that the incubation =
time for=20
Black Death could have lasted the time it took for a rider to get from =
Mongolia=20
to Eastern Europe and in doing so deliver the Plague with=20
it.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ring-a-ring a roses,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A pocket full of posies,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A-tishoo, a-tishoo,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We all fall down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Germans also have a version of this =
children's=20
rhyme - and it is recorded from about the same period. But, the last two =
lines=20
are quite different and are just as nonsensical and they too fall over =
at the=20
end. So does it mean that it's a Plague rhyme or just a silly childs=20
game?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Roll.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: "Schuster, Robert L." =
<</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:SchusterRL@umsystem.edu"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>SchusterRL@umsystem.edu</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:list-regia-na@lig.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>list-regia-na@lig.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:11 =
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: RE: [Regia-NA] False: The four =
kings in a=20
deck of playing cards represent Charlemagne, David, Caesar, and=20
Alexander</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV><BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>This is fairly well known, actually, at least =
amongst the=20
historical<BR>groups. :-) It goes right along with the myth about=20
ring-around-the-rosy<BR>and the Black Death, or that stupid stupid list =
of 'well=20
known phrases'<BR>that describes the medieval origins of stuff like =
'raining=20
cats and dogs'<BR>or the thing about the train tracks being determined =
by the=20
width of a<BR>horses arse.<BR><BR>-- Brett<BR><BR>--i was pretty sure =
the list=20
of phrases thing was a hoax but i thought Ring Around the Rossies was a =
song=20
about the Plague, is it not?<BR><BR>Halvgrimr<BR><BR>Sing a Song of Six =
Pence=20
was used by who to recruit?<BR></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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