[Regia-NA] SCA-style vs. Regia-style discourse
Hrolf Douglasson
list-regia-na@lig.net
Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:43:08 -0000
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we are always willing to help whenever we can..although the two forms of =
research are different (not better or worse just different). I can't =
always quote where and when I have seen a piece of work, although I can =
normally remember if it is from a primary or tertiary source.
Regia tends, with things like dyes, to be telling you what we have done =
and found out (eg that bright orange you get from madder is even =
brighter if you use the water from hamilton in scoltand and NO I didn't =
use any modern chemicals to get the day glow orange) and how the wear on =
a naalbinding needle changes after 3 years. If you want from us chapter =
and verse we have people for that..AO's and the like. Regia is also over =
hauling the hand book at the moment, it should be out at some point but =
don't hold your breath..there is a lot of work in that one project.
Information is available to all...and so is the lack of information. We =
have people all over the UK looking at bits and pieces, and quite often =
the evidence just isn't there..here goes the old one about there being =
no documentary evidence for children. We use that phrase as a teaching =
aid. Of course there is archeological evidence, there is rather a nice =
skeleton of a 12 year old male from the saxon period in chester museum =
in the teaching room. but the documentary evidence is scarce.
when you get an unexpected answer...please we are not trying to be =
difficault. just that we simply don't have the answer. but some answers =
we do have, and those we are willing and eager to share.
vara
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Frojel Gotlandica=20
To: list-regia-na@lig.net=20
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Regia-NA] SCA-style vs. Regia-style discourse
Hi Scott
All I can say is that they must be really small minded and you are =
better off that they don't give any help, we do and we even attend some =
SCA events at times and we even invite SCA people to our feasts, if you =
have a look at our web page we even have photos of SCA people doing =
their fighting etc so that is not the rule but the exception. We have =
always been willing to help and answer questions. We have the =
information and we try to pass it around as much as possible, mostly it =
is Gotland specific but at also fits a lot of other groups since the =
Gotlanders were pretty busy on the trade side of things. We even have a =
reasonable number of photos of artifacts on the page for people to use =
or download.
You cannot steal what is freely given to you, though we also ran into =
that attitude back in the early days.
The best way to react to people like that is to publish and spread =
around everything you can find, then their little secret "reasearch" =
becomes insignificant and they are soon recognised for what they are. =
Mdecal marvels who have had ther Cranial contents transposed with their =
colon contents.
Cheers
Sandy
>Here Here! Couldn't have made a better explaination so I won't. All I =
can=20
>say is that the last time I asked for authenticity help from a =
reenacting=20
>on-line group who knew I was in the SCA was "We don't like people in =
the SCA=20
>because all they want to do is steal our research."
>(not saying it was this particular group)
>
>Talk about frustrating.
>
>Scott
>
>
>Bravery is being the only one who knows youre afraid.
> Franklin P. Jones
>
>
>
>
>>From: Carolyn Priest-Dorman <capriest@cs.vassar.edu>
>>Reply-To: list-regia-na@lig.net
>>To: list-regia-na@lig.NET
>>Subject: [Regia-NA] SCA-style vs. Regia-style discourse
>>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:21:05 -0500
>>
>>If someone is looking for solid factual documentation, and is =
frustrated=20
>>because she isn't finding it, it isn't helpful for her to be hearing =
>>something like this.
>>
>>>But then, there isn't any solid
>>>documentation for the existence of children, either. We know this, =
we have
>>>three on site, and trying to explain them away is just the =
pits...:-))
>>
>>Nonsense! There's plenty of solid carbon-dated evidence for the =
existence=20
>>of children of all ages throughout history, in the form of =
skeletons. (No,=20
>>as a mother I don't like to contemplate the existence of dead =
children=20
>>either, but the truth is important and sometimes needs to be said.)
>>
>>It is more helpful to the questioner if the people who respond =
either=20
>>answer "yes, here's the documentation," or "X has the documentation, =
go ask=20
>>her," or "no, I don't have documentation." Rhetorically phrased =
factually=20
>>incorrect responses don't do anything to either help or calm down =
the=20
>>frustrated questioner; they just inflame the situation.
>>
>>I have noticed this particular culture-clash problem repeatedly on =
this=20
>>particular list. It simply is not easy to orient oneself to Regia's =
world=20
>>view and values from the remote location of the New World. Kim has =
gone a=20
>>long way toward providing insight into the problem when he points =
out in=20
>>his most recent Regia-NA post the basic penury of Regia as an =
organization,=20
>>and how Regia can't often underwrite publication of members' =
research.=20
>>This accounts for the paucity of membership and/or organizational=20
>>handbooks, etc. (I think I have a copy of every official Regia=20
>>document--handbook, bylaws, and fighting rules. Is that it?)
>>
>>However, most of the results of research in the SCA are similarly=20
>>unpublished. And however easy it is to take pot-shots at the SCA for =
its=20
>>base level of inauthenticity, the simple fact that serious =
high-level=20
>>researchers live, research, play, and produce documentation there =
simply=20
>>cannot be laughed off by anyone. The SCA solves this problem by =
vigorously=20
>>promoting (and rewarding) discourse among the membership about =
factual=20
>>historic information they've found, in the interest of ensuring a =
more=20
>>authentic game.
>>
>>In the SCA, when someone asks for documentation it's because he =
wants to=20
>>make or do a more period thing. It's not a challenge to the communal =
>>knowledge of the entire SCA--it's a praiseworthy impulse seeking an =
outlet.=20
>> When North American SCA people come to Regia, as I did, they seek =
to be=20
>>oriented to the knowledge base of Regia in just the same way and for =
just=20
>>the same reason. They express this need by talking to the only =
populace=20
>>they can lasso: the e-groups. But I've noticed that many times what =
they=20
>>find is a baffling silence, a bewildering language barrier (it =
*seems* like=20
>>English, much of the time), or assertions about what is and isn't=20
>>historically authentic by people who get hostile when their =
statements are=20
>>probed for the underlying sources.
>>
>>SCA people need to understand that the rank and file Regia member =
does not=20
>>always know what the documentation is, because that's the express =
job of=20
>>the local Authenticity Officer. (This is not a criticism! I'm =
willing to=20
>>bet that the rank and file don't know much about what the local =
group's=20
>>ledgers look like either, for the same reason.) But in the SCA, =
there is=20
>>no "Authenticity Officer" post. Regia people need to understand that =
the=20
>>insistence of SCA people on sources of fact is not a challenge, but =
the=20
>>result of the deliberate "authenticity vacuum" in the SCA hierarchy. =
And=20
>>both sets of people need to understand that if Regia-NA is to =
flourish we=20
>>will need to work toward creating some middle path that satisfies =
both Old=20
>>World operating methods and New World acculturation.
>>
>>Remember, the ultimate goal here is to have fun being authentic; =
that's why=20
>>we're all here, isn't it?
>>
>>
>>Carolyn Priest-Dorman =DE=A2ra Sharptooth
>> http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/thora.html
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>list-regia-na mailing list
>>list-regia-na@lig.net
>>http://www.lig.net/mailman/listinfo/list-regia-na
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
>http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/featuredemail
>
>_______________________________________________
>list-regia-na mailing list
>list-regia-na@lig.net
>http://www.lig.net/mailman/listinfo/list-regia-na
>
Fr=F6jel Gotlandica Viking Re-enactment Society.
http://www.frojel.com/
frojel@frojel.com=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>we are always willing to help whenever =
we=20
can..although the two forms of research are different (not better or =
worse just=20
different). I can't always quote where and when I have seen a piece of =
work,=20
although I can normally remember if it is from a primary or tertiary=20
source.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regia tends, with things like dyes, to =
be telling=20
you what we have done and found out (eg that bright orange you get from =
madder=20
is even brighter if you use the water from hamilton in scoltand and NO I =
didn't=20
use any modern chemicals to get the day glow orange) and how the wear on =
a=20
naalbinding needle changes after 3 years. If you want from us chapter =
and verse=20
we have people for that..AO's and the like. Regia is also over hauling =
the hand=20
book at the moment, it should be out at some point but don't hold your=20
breath..there is a lot of work in that one project.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Information is available to all...and =
so is the=20
lack of information. We have people all over the UK looking at bits and =
pieces,=20
and quite often the evidence just isn't there..here goes the old one =
about there=20
being no documentary evidence for children. We use that phrase as a =
teaching=20
aid. Of course there is archeological evidence, there is rather a nice =
skeleton=20
of a 12 year old male from the saxon period in chester museum in the =
teaching=20
room. but the documentary evidence is scarce.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>when you get an unexpected =
answer...please we are=20
not trying to be difficault. just that we simply don't have the =
answer. =20
but some answers we do have, and those we are willing and eager to=20
share.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>vara</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dfrojel@dcsi.net.au =
href=3D"mailto:frojel@dcsi.net.au">Frojel=20
Gotlandica</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dlist-regia-na@lig.net=20
href=3D"mailto:list-regia-na@lig.net">list-regia-na@lig.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 10, 2003 =
10:19=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Regia-NA] =
SCA-style vs.=20
Regia-style discourse</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" DEFAULT=3D"FACE"><FONT =
size=3D3=20
DEFAULT=3D"SIZE" POINTSIZE=3D"12">Hi Scott<BR><BR>All I can say is =
that they must=20
be really small minded and you are better off that they don't give any =
help,=20
we do and we even attend some SCA events at times and we even invite =
SCA=20
people to our feasts, if you have a look at our web page we even have =
photos=20
of SCA people doing their fighting etc so that is not the rule but the =
exception. We have always been willing to help and answer questions. =
We have=20
the information and we try to pass it around as much as possible, =
mostly it is=20
Gotland specific but at also fits a lot of other groups since the =
Gotlanders=20
were pretty busy on the trade side of things. We even have a =
reasonable number=20
of photos of artifacts on the page for people to use or =
download.<BR>You=20
cannot steal what is freely given to you, though we also ran into that =
attitude back in the early days.<BR>The best way to react to people =
like that=20
is to publish and spread around everything you can find, then their =
little=20
secret "reasearch" becomes insignificant and they are soon recognised =
for what=20
they are. Mdecal marvels who have had ther Cranial contents transposed =
with=20
their colon contents.<BR><BR>Cheers<BR>Sandy<BR><BR>>Here Here! =
Couldn't=20
have made a better explaination so I won't. All I can <BR>>say is =
that the=20
last time I asked for authenticity help from a reenacting =
<BR>>on-line=20
group who knew I was in the SCA was "We don't like people in the SCA=20
<BR>>because all they want to do is steal our =
research."<BR>>(not saying=20
it was this particular group)<BR>><BR>>Talk about=20
frustrating.<BR>><BR>>Scott<BR>><BR>><BR>>Bravery is =
being the=20
only one who knows youre afraid.<BR>> Franklin P.=20
Jones<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>>From: Carolyn =
Priest-Dorman=20
<<FONT color=3D#0000ff><U>capriest@cs.vassar.edu<FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U>><BR>>>Reply-To: <FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><U>list-regia-na@lig.net<FONT color=3D#000000=20
DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>>>To: <FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><U>list-regia-na@lig.NET<FONT color=3D#000000=20
DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>>>Subject: [Regia-NA] SCA-style vs. =
Regia-style=20
discourse<BR>>>Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:21:05=20
-0500<BR>>><BR>>>If someone is looking for solid factual=20
documentation, and is frustrated <BR>>>because she isn't finding =
it, it=20
isn't helpful for her to be hearing <BR>>>something like=20
this.<BR>>><BR>>>>But then, there isn't any=20
solid<BR>>>>documentation for the existence of children, =
either. We=20
know this, we have<BR>>>>three on site, and trying to explain =
them=20
away is just the pits...:-))<BR>>><BR>>>Nonsense! There's =
plenty=20
of solid carbon-dated evidence for the existence <BR>>>of =
children of=20
all ages throughout history, in the form of skeletons. (No, =
<BR>>>as a=20
mother I don't like to contemplate the existence of dead children=20
<BR>>>either, but the truth is important and sometimes needs to =
be=20
said.)<BR>>><BR>>>It is more helpful to the questioner if =
the=20
people who respond either <BR>>>answer "yes, here's the =
documentation,"=20
or "X has the documentation, go ask <BR>>>her," or "no, I don't =
have=20
documentation." Rhetorically phrased factually <BR>>>incorrect =
responses=20
don't do anything to either help or calm down the =
<BR>>>frustrated=20
questioner; they just inflame the situation.<BR>>><BR>>>I =
have=20
noticed this particular culture-clash problem repeatedly on this=20
<BR>>>particular list. It simply is not easy to orient oneself =
to=20
Regia's world <BR>>>view and values from the remote location of =
the New=20
World. Kim has gone a <BR>>>long way toward providing insight =
into the=20
problem when he points out in <BR>>>his most recent Regia-NA =
post the=20
basic penury of Regia as an organization, <BR>>>and how Regia =
can't=20
often underwrite publication of members' research. <BR>>>This =
accounts=20
for the paucity of membership and/or organizational =
<BR>>>handbooks,=20
etc. (I think I have a copy of every official Regia=20
<BR>>>document--handbook, bylaws, and fighting rules. Is that=20
it?)<BR>>><BR>>>However, most of the results of research =
in the=20
SCA are similarly <BR>>>unpublished. And however easy it is to =
take=20
pot-shots at the SCA for its <BR>>>base level of inauthenticity, =
the=20
simple fact that serious high-level <BR>>>researchers live, =
research,=20
play, and produce documentation there simply <BR>>>cannot be =
laughed off=20
by anyone. The SCA solves this problem by vigorously =
<BR>>>promoting=20
(and rewarding) discourse among the membership about factual=20
<BR>>>historic information they've found, in the interest of =
ensuring a=20
more <BR>>>authentic game.<BR>>><BR>>>In the SCA, =
when=20
someone asks for documentation it's because he wants to =
<BR>>>make or do=20
a more period thing. It's not a challenge to the communal=20
<BR>>>knowledge of the entire SCA--it's a praiseworthy impulse =
seeking=20
an outlet. <BR>>> When North American SCA people come to Regia, =
as I=20
did, they seek to be <BR>>>oriented to the knowledge base of =
Regia in=20
just the same way and for just <BR>>>the same reason. They =
express this=20
need by talking to the only populace <BR>>>they can lasso: the =
e-groups.=20
But I've noticed that many times what they <BR>>>find is a =
baffling=20
silence, a bewildering language barrier (it *seems* like =
<BR>>>English,=20
much of the time), or assertions about what is and isn't=20
<BR>>>historically authentic by people who get hostile when =
their=20
statements are <BR>>>probed for the underlying=20
sources.<BR>>><BR>>>SCA people need to understand that the =
rank=20
and file Regia member does not <BR>>>always know what the =
documentation=20
is, because that's the express job of <BR>>>the local =
Authenticity=20
Officer. (This is not a criticism! I'm willing to <BR>>>bet that =
the=20
rank and file don't know much about what the local group's =
<BR>>>ledgers=20
look like either, for the same reason.) But in the SCA, there is=20
<BR>>>no "Authenticity Officer" post. Regia people need to =
understand=20
that the <BR>>>insistence of SCA people on sources of fact is =
not a=20
challenge, but the <BR>>>result of the deliberate "authenticity =
vacuum"=20
in the SCA hierarchy. And <BR>>>both sets of people need to =
understand=20
that if Regia-NA is to flourish we <BR>>>will need to work =
toward=20
creating some middle path that satisfies both Old <BR>>>World =
operating=20
methods and New World acculturation.<BR>>><BR>>>Remember, =
the=20
ultimate goal here is to have fun being authentic; that's why=20
<BR>>>we're all here, isn't=20
it?<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>Carolyn Priest-Dorman =DE=A2ra=20
Sharptooth<BR>>> <FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><U>http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/thora.html<FONT=20
color=3D#000000=20
=
DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>_______________=
________________________________<BR>>>list-regia-na=20
mailing list<BR>>><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><U>list-regia-na@lig.net<FONT=20
color=3D#000000 DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>>><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff><U>http://www.lig.net/mailman/listinfo/list-regia-na<FONT=
=20
color=3D#000000=20
=
DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>><BR>><BR>>___________________________=
______________________________________<BR>>Add=20
photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. <BR>><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff><U>http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/featuredemail<FON=
T=20
color=3D#000000=20
=
DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>><BR>>___________________________________=
____________<BR>>list-regia-na=20
mailing list<BR>><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><U>list-regia-na@lig.net<FONT=20
color=3D#000000 DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>><FONT=20
=
color=3D#0000ff><U>http://www.lig.net/mailman/listinfo/list-regia-na<FONT=
=20
color=3D#000000 DEFAULT=3D"COLOR"></U><BR>><BR><BR><LEFT><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000001 size=3D3 DEFAULT=3D"ALL"=20
=
POINTSIZE=3D"12">Fr=F6jel Gotlandica Viking Re-enactment&n=
bsp;Society.<BR>http://www.frojel.com/<BR>frojel@frojel.com=20
=
</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></F=
ONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT=
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