[Regia-NA] My response to Colors, Getelds, Etc.

[Phil]

Please, lets keep our collective shirts on.

A few general observations if I may:

1)    Nancy Foy Cameron, "Woad: Its history, how to grow it, how it works,
how to get colour out of it" ISBN 0-9534014-3-X, and a very modest £4,
states that in C12 Edinburgh the Merchant Guild specifically excluded those
"with dirty hands or blue nails." Clearly just after our period woad was
being grown quite far North (although if memory serves, the climate was a
degree or two warmer back then).

2)    She also states that there are some fabric samples from York, C9-C11,
that contain indigotin, presumably from local woad. Perhaps someone with
more time and interest in this than me would care to follow that up?

3)    She also cites a commercial dyer from the US in 1832 saying what a
difficult process dyeing with woad is. Although the commercial dyer is more
concerned about consistency of colour, but if it was a difficult process in
1832 I'd bet a pound to a penny it was a difficult process in 1032!

4)    She also says that the French word for best woad was 'pastel' which to
my mind suggests it is hard to get deep colours from it.

5)    Black: As I understand in no one in Regia has ever said it wasn't
possible, or indeed easy, to get black. As an occasional dabbler in dyeing,
even an ignoramus such as myself can get it - so it must be easy. What we
have said though is that we don't want people to use black because we tend
to end up with a sea of black clothing - making us look like some bad 1970's
Ninja movie.

6)    I have a reference somewhere, can't lay my hands on it at the moment,
wherein the residents of the Isle of Ely in the C16 or C17 are asking for no
more woad to be grown on the Isle because of the depletion of the soil. If
it depleted the soil then, it undoubtedly depleted the soil in our period -
thus making it a crop which would be expensive in the longer term to grow.

7)    Indigo: in his book 'The Normans in Sicily' John Julius Norwich says
that one of the main exports from Sicily during the Normo-Sicilian period,
C11-C12, was indigo. as the Norman state turned in on itself and became less
tolerant the Muslim population left the island, and took with it the
knowledge of how to grow the crop.. It's sometime since I read this book,
and unfortunately the somewhat sparse index doesn't include indigo - however
I distinctly remember its mention, because it runs counter to what I'd been
told in Regia.

Sorry, no conclusions, just some points for thought.

Phil.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf@btinternet.com>
To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Regia-NA] My response to Colors, Getelds, Etc.


> Excuse me...I was the one who mentioned the paint mix of ochre/urine and
> oil..I did NOT suggest you used it..please read my original mail. I said I
> believed that it might be used.
> the only information I can trace back is to the 1500'splease don't put
words
> into my mouth.
>
> woad also only grows in the very south of UK and then only if tended..woad
> grew arouind guildford in surrey during our period and it was famous for
> that fact.
> vara
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lori Rael Northon" <lesseley@attbi.com>
> To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:05 PM
> Subject: [Regia-NA] My response to Colors, Getelds, Etc.
>
>
> > I am responding to a couple of comments from a couple of emails.
> >
> > Where is the documentation to support your inferences regarding what was
> > used or not used in the construction of Getelds as to material, color,
how
> > that material was achieved, decorations, techniques used to achieve that
> > decoration, and who used the Geteld from the Anglo-Saxon society?
> Citations
> > only, no arbitrary conclusions or leaps of faith or analogies to other
> > societies or references to respected older members.  Give me
documentation
> I
> > can use.
> >
> > I will admit that the conclusions I've arrived at based on the
> documentation
> > I have at hand -  'Anglo-Saxon Wills' and about 4 or 5 manuscript
> > illuminations portraying a variety of Getelds - may not be exact, but at
> > least I've tried my hardest to find supporting documentation for the
> Geteld
> > I've created.  I have yet to be told about any solid documentation
> regarding
> > Getelds (with the exception of the single entry for a "red Geteld" from
> Roll
> > that I found by searching the Regia UK archives) by any member of
Regia -
> UK
> > or NA.
> >
> > I have been told to paint my Geteld using red ochre and horse dung and
> urine
> > and a variety of other things, when the citations as quoted clearly tell
> us
> > about sails being water-proofed from a different time period or society.
> > Nothing about Anglo-Saxon Getelds.
> >
> > I'm told to consider "use and means" when using documentation I run
> across,
> > okay, then that means that every single reference or citation for
Getelds
> > that I've found was meant for or portrays only the highest of the clergy
> and
> > the highest of the royalty, because the manuscripts were not meant for
or
> > used by either the lesser clergy nor the common people in the time
period
> we
> > portray.  The !only! conclusion I can come to is that no one within our
> > group portraying an Anglo-Saxon, with the exception of the highest of
> > Royalty or the highest of the clergy would be allowed to use a Geteld or
a
> > conical tent.  End of conversation.  I guess we all sleep under tree
> limbs,
> > blankets, furs, other people or out in the open.
> >
> > I'm told blue was a difficult and horribly expensive color to obtain (?)
> and
> > that since the Anglo-Saxon people were living at subsistence levels (?)
> they
> > would not have access to or use the color blue (?).  I'm also told the
> only
> > way to obtain blue in the quantities I would need to achieve dark blue
> would
> > be to use indigo from India (?).  It is my understanding from countless
> > references too numerous to even mention, as well as many dye "experts"
> > across the board, that a very dark blue is achievable using woad.  It is
> my
> > understanding that woad was and continues to be a highly invasive weed
> that
> > was used by the "cottage" dyers in the time period we portray.  The
> chemical
> > component in woad is exactly the same as the component in indigo, just
> found
> > in smaller amounts in woad than indigo, and is indistinguishable under
> > chemical analysis.  So can anyone please give me a citation from the
> period
> > that tells me the common Anglo-Saxon people did not use woad and did not
> dye
> > any of their material blue?
> >
> > I'm told also that the modern eye cannot distinguish the difference
> between
> > chemically achieved black dye and black achieved using period methods.
> I'm
> > also told that period black will fade over the course of its lifetime
when
> > exposed to sunlight and eventually turn brown.  I have no problem with
the
> > fading issue, but modern chemically achieved blacks will do the exact
same
> > thing.  I do have a serious problem with modern eyes not being able to
> > discern the difference.  If this is true for black, then it holds true
for
> > all colors, and it holds true for all members within Regia as well.  We
> all
> > have modern 20th century eyes.
> >
> > I could go on, but I won't.  I will say again, that I will not
compromise
> my
> > beliefs regarding my own research or that of others I know to be
factual.
> I
> > will hold an absolutely open mind, however, and if anyone can provide me
> > citations and references to support a different conclusion about any of
> the
> > things I question, I will most certainly change my conclusions.  Until
> then,
> > I must again respectfully agree to disagree with the arbitrary and
> erroneous
> > ( totally in my opinion) conclusions that some members of Regia have
> reached
> > apparently based on their own preconceived notions and not on factual
> > evidence.  All are free to disagree or agree with my viewpoints.
> >
> > For now, we have far more important things to discuss like how to get
our
> > members authorized for Skills then to continue quibbling amongst
> ourselves.
> >
> > Lori
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > list-regia-na mailing list
> > list-regia-na@lig.net
> > http://www.lig.net/mailman/listinfo/list-regia-na
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> list-regia-na mailing list
> list-regia-na@lig.net
> http://www.lig.net/mailman/listinfo/list-regia-na
>
>