[Regia-NA] Raised helmets & conspiracy theories

[list-regia-na@lig.net]

Hi Nathan

Thanks for the info about the Lednikie helmet. I don't own Crusading Era, but 
they have it in the library at school, I'll look it up tomorrow.

Regarding the Kiev helmet, the pictures I've seen look like a spangenhelm. 
Furthermore, it's been recently dismissed (within the last year) as a WWII 
German helmet liner for a tank gunner or fighter pilot. An American SCA member 
owns an identical helm, and put out the call that he wanted to authenticate it. 
Someone pointed him to a number of identical WWII items.

Pity; there are so few extant helmets from the era, the more the better. But 
the Kiev helmet (and identical Strong helmet in the US) are 20th century.

Link here: http://www.missouri.edu/~rls555/SCA/research/helms/StrongKiev.htm

I'll look up that German helm tomorrow, thanks again!

~Wil

Quoting nathan <fenrirr@lycos.co.uk>:

> > Fact- There are only two raised conical nasal helmets of Western/Central
> > European origin: Olmutz and Wenceslaus. Olmutz is generally accepted
> > to be from around 1100.
> 
> 
> Ok a few thoughts
> 
> The helmet from Lake Lednikie (Germany) is also a 1 piece conical helm
> (probaby
> C11th, heavily restored).  Pointy like the olmutz but without the creased
> crest
> construction.  [item #414 - pg 169/434 Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era
> 1050-1350 (western europe and the crusader states) D Nicolle]
> 
> The kiev helm that tweddle mentions in [The Anglian Helmet from Coppergate,
> D
> Tweddle] (page 1132, fig 566) is also a 1 piece (no idea of the date) that
> follows the same parameters as the wenceslaus, in that it has a more domed
> profile (i.e. not as conical as the olmutz).  Now given the fact that the
> immediateley preceeding [in the book] helm is not medieval and is from the
> same
> area this might be best discounted.
> 
> 
> > My theory: The Wenceslaus helmet is from around 1100. It never
> > belonged to St.
> > Wenceslaus. The Prague Cathedral presented it as a relic long after his
> death
> > to turn the church into a pilgrimage site (relics=pligrims=revenue &
> > prestige).
> 
> 
> The above being the case i still agree.  1 piece conical helms are unlikely
> to
> be in general use prior to 1100 and for regia's purposes they are best
> avoided.
> 
> 
> > My evidence? None :)
> 
> 
> Perhaps but Nicolle states "So-called Helmet of St Wenceslaus, Bohemia
> 10th-11th
> centuries", until the Prague Cathedral allows serious achedemic study of
> the
> artefact (metalurgical dating analysis would be nice) i'm not convinced
> either.
> 
> I have seen no details about the associated mailshirt either, that might help
> in
> some way to guestimate the age (though completely unreliable).  You got
> any?
> The rivet pattern would be particularly telling.
> 
> Kram
> N.
> 
> 
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