[Regia-NA] Mail Vendors

Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:57:15 +0100

OK, I'm convinced!! Thanks Chris, you've managed to clear up a long term
problem I've had with European mail reconstructions .

Might I asks you to write some of this up for Chronicle?

Regards,

Kim Siddorn.

"When men die, their Maker may reward them for their efforts by allowing
them to live again as male dogs. Thus freed from inhibition, they can spend
a cheerful existence doing all those things they really wanted to do when
they were men."

Paneb, Foreman mason in  the Valley of the Kings, circa 1190BC
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris n julie" <brandnflossi@btinternet.com>
To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Regia-NA] Mail Vendors

> Sorry if I didn't make that clear Kim,
>
> If you heat  a ring with a white heat and squease it together it welds m8.
>
> Its not pressed or deformed just welded. Banging is not necessary just
> pressure see this fella for details using propane etc,
>
> http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/welded_rings/welded_rings.htm
>
> But having tried forge welding modern Iron a flux is very necessary. I
> believe that Wought Iron has more Silicates in it which melt and form a
> natural flux which assis it in process ( scource The Blacksmiths Craft,
Pub
> Rural Industries Bureau 1952).
>
> Burning in a forge there is very little oxygen but still enough to cause
> burning on most modern irons. But as soon as you more the litle buggers
out
> of the center the oxy gets to em and they spark away, But using plain old
> borax or similar they weld just nice.
>
> Brand
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J. K. Siddorn" <kim.siddorn@blueyonder.co.uk>
> To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Regia-NA] Mail Vendors
>
>
> > I don't think it's welding Chris. Pressed up tight and deformed to a
> really
> > close fit, certainly, but the ring can't be welding unless it is
hovering
> > around 900C when banged together. Dominic Tweedle made this very point
in
> > his article.
> >
> > Flux isn't necessary when there is no oxygen present, but as one who has
> > oxy-acetylene gas welded both stainless and aluminium in his time,
molten
> > metal will grap oxygen out of the air and form a skin within moments.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Kim Siddorn.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "When men die, their Maker may reward them for their efforts by allowing
> > them to live again as male dogs. Thus freed from inhibition, they can
> spend
> > a cheerful existence doing all those things they really wanted to do
when
> > they were men."
> >
> > Paneb, Foreman mason in  the Valley of the Kings, circa 1190BC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "chris n julie" <brandnflossi@btinternet.com>
> > To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Regia-NA] Mail Vendors
> >
> >
> > > Why's that Kim ?
> > >
> > > Heat up ring in forge, then using second set of pliers squeeze ring
> > tightly,
> > > then remove from heat.
> > >
> > > Works ok.
> > >
> > > The problem we have is the iron is too good quality and so needs a
flux
> to
> > > stop it oxidising, but I understand that wasn't a problem in period.
> > >
> > >
> > > Brand
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "J. K. Siddorn" <kim.siddorn@blueyonder.co.uk>
> > > To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:09 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Regia-NA] Mail Vendors
> > >
> > >
> > > > Personally, I don't think it is possible to forge weld individual
> rings
> > > with
> > > > available Circa 10thC technology. The ring is so small it cools
below
> > > > welding temperature in less than a second.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, I'd be DELIGHTED to print an article in Chronicle
> explaining
> > > just
> > > > how it can be achieved!
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Kim Siddorn.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "When men die, their Maker may reward them for their efforts by
> allowing
> > > > them to live again as male dogs. Thus freed from inhibition, they
can
> > > spend
> > > > a cheerful existence doing all those things they really wanted to do
> > when
> > > > they were men."
> > > >
> > > > Paneb, Foreman mason in  the Valley of the Kings, circa 1190BC
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Jon Smith" <cynewulf@ntlworld.com>
> > > > To: <list-regia-na@lig.net>
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 8:11 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [Regia-NA] Mail Vendors
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > From reading around, the links of the period (including those i've
> > seen)
> > > > are
> > > > > best described as sub round - some round, some more oblate (I love
> > that
> > > > > word) and others with slightly squared edges. None are flat, or
> really
> > > > > square in section. Nathan has been to the armouries at Leeds to
look
> > at
> > > > some
> > > > > of the medieval pieces they have.  From chats in the pub - he said
> > that
> > > > > (nearly) all the european mail uses the triangular wedge rivet
> (these
> > > were
> > > > > cut from sheet or wire). There was also some doubt over how common
> > > > > hammer/forge welding was and that the 'staple rivets' [see the
regia
> > > > > handbook] were very uncommon.
> > > > >
> > > > > The quality of finish in mail of the period is often better than
> that
> > > seen
> > > > > on later mass produced medieval suits... what you don't see are
the
> > > large
> > > > > flat surclip ends like most reproduction mail has these days (and
> you
> > > see
> > > > on
> > > > > the 14th/15th century suits - again a case of mass production???).
> > Most
> > > > mail
> > > > > coming in looks something like this. As for sizes, 7mm ID seems to
> be
> > > > about
> > > > > the average - [mean, median and mode], with 1-1.5 mm wire
diameter -
> > > whole
> > > > > shirts come in at about the 20-30lb weight (short sleeved short
> > byrnie)
> > > > >
> > > > > Also of note is the quick repairs on the coppergate aventail -
which
> > are
> > > > > quite crude and the run of copper alloy rings (there were about 3
of
> > > them)
> > > > > which someone has suggested were for running a leather thong
through
> > [so
> > > > it
> > > > > doesn't dissolve in the acid from the iron].
> > > > >
> > > > > Jon/Cynewulf - UK Regia
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: list-regia-na-admin@lig.net
> > [mailto:list-regia-na-admin@lig.net]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Schuster, Robert L.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that Nathen has reserched this I'll ask as I don't know if
> > he's
> > > on
> > > > > this list. But I sure that Flat is just (If not more) authentic as
> > very
> > > > > round stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Tweddle's book on the Coppergate helm has a small section on a
> cross
> > > > > comparison on most of the well documented (and a few that aren't;)
> > > > > Scandinavian mail finds. It contains where they were found,
> diameters,
> > > > > joining methods and a description of each of the finds, none of
them
> > > > mention
> > > > > flat rings, admittedly one find does have square section rings but
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > thought to be from a real chain not maille;)
> > > > >
> > > > > now in saying that, none of them mention round sectioned rings
> either
> > > (DOH
> > > > > there isn't a cross section column), i would hope that if they had
> > proof
> > > > of
> > > > > flat sectioned rings that they would have mentioned it so that we
> > > research
> > > > > geeks could find it;)
> > > > >
> > > > > again, id be very glad to get some more info on the subject, i
have
> > site
> > > > > reports on several of the Vendal/Valsgarde graves but getting
> > > translations
> > > > > had been a real pain.
> > > > >
> > > > > Halvgrimr the ever Curious
> > > > > Robb
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
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